Another Christian Fundie "Stoic" Cries About Their People Being Oppressed

Like most of my blogs, 
this all started in a Stoicism Facebook discussion group. 

[Let us take a moment of silence,
to reflect on yet another bounty of provocative  discourse; 
which the death-cults of the Supreme Narcissist  continue to bless us with] 

Some random guy posted this:

My initial thoughts about that quote:

It's very strangely worded.
I could go look it up.
But I don't really care if he really said those words or not.
It's the thought that counts.
And I agree with it.

But I also knew that thread-post was going to ruffle some feathers. 

 Granted,
only the most fragile of religious people are going to feel provoked to challenge that post. 
But we got LOTS of those in Stoicism groups.

There's only one way it ever goes.  
So I knew what I'd find in the comments. 
 
Of course,
it's usually the fundie Christians who start  religiously-relevant controversial threads.

[Edit]
"Fundie" is short for:
 Religious fundamentalist. 

Here is a wiki link that explains the history/origin of that phrase. 

The person I was responding to in this blog
has asked for a definition. 

 A simple Google search offers a basic overview of the concept.

However, let's examine those concepts more closely.

Let's also examine common modern iterations of it, to get a better idea of what forms it has taken in our modern world. 

A religious fundamentalist is someone whom has taken a personal oath of loyalty to a set of religious ideas; 
such that everything in life must be viewed only from that presumed-correct lens. 

That renders all essential elements to their ideological narrative ... unfalsifiable.

It also renders their religious collective:
innocent of any serious wrongs; 
no matter what they've ever done. 

Thus,
if any of their religion's official statements
 contain any statement which flatly contradicts observable reality, ...
those contradictory ~observations of reality~ must be wrong; because their narrative must be correct. 

Another terminology that can be used is "authoritarian ideologue". 

Common traits of religious fundamentalists include:

1. Religious;
believing in a greater-than-mere-human (or "superhuman") controlling power. 

2. Submits to that entity as a moral authority over their life. 

3. Believes that entity is a literal, 
autonomously self-aware being with unfathomable powers.
Their icon of power is a real person;
not merely a set of ideas/abstractions. 

4. Believes that entity is not only an authority over their own life, but also:
is equally and rightfully in a position of power and authority over everyone's life; no matter who realizes or "accepts" that as true. 

5. Has a body of declarations (stories, sayings, etc) which they interpret to be largely literal.

6. Those stories are presumed to have been authored as a perfect message from a perfect entity.
These utterances serve as the foundation of their religious narrative.

7. Their religious narrative also serves as a foundation for their sense of personal identity and worth. 

8. Because they evaluate/assess/measure/judge everyone by the same religious criteria, 
that means:
 Their  religious narrative serves as a foundation for their sense of what everyone else is or isn't worth (or "worthy of");
such as each person's worthiness to exist after "judgement day" (not-thrown-away-like-trash forever) 
or
worthiness to be not-tortured forever. 

9. Holds to authoritarian and/or totalitarian values; especially when it comes to their icon of power (what most call a "God"). 

10. Believes in establishing or joining a literal "kingdom" (either on Earth or somewhere else);
which will require first converting or eliminating all adversaries and non-interested persons. 

11. Believes that everyone either innately "knows" the exclusive "truth" of their icon of power (what some might call a "God")
or 
that everyone will eventually "know" of them.

12. Believes that everyone has "no excuse" 
 for not seeking, not finding, and not ultimately embracing the narrative of authority
which defines their Icon of Power. 

13. Submitting to their Icon of Power's authority  means:
 submitting to their group's authority; since they are authorized agents/representative's (and thus: an extension of) that power. 

14. They are glad to personally benefit from that hierarchical (master/slave) dichotomy with their fellow humans. 
-Although, they might prefer to market that with more careful wording; like: shepherd and sheep. 

15. They advertise their religion's (or "faith's") benefits as "free";
hiding the fact that it's actually fantastically expensive. 

16. Grossly exaggerates the benefits of joining;
 and the costs of abstaining. 

17. Demonizes and/or denigrates:
* all critics,

* the willfully disinterested,

* everyone who flies the same tribal flag but has the "wrong" doctrines,

* everyone who lives, loves, or identifies in perceived "wrong" ways,

and
* everyone who stands in the way of their collective's
endless pursuit
of ever-greater social or political power. 

17. If their group's ideals are found in a large (longwinded) body of utterances (ie. a big book), ... 
 
They will expect converts to "consent" to enlistment 
without being fully informed. 

 In this case (with religions such Christianity) they are hoping you don't realize:
 uninformed or under-informed consent is not true consent. 

  Upon enlisting, you become obligated to ignore, re-interpret, or creatively justify
 any-and-all fine-print you might discover later in that contract (or "covenant") spelled out in their many hundreds of pages.  
 
18. Participate in (or otherwise supports)
blatant attempts at coercion
(emotional violence and duress)
to enlist new members
and to hold existing members; 

 -at least, when other tactics fail. 

 Examples:
 a.)
Threats of a "Hell"

b.)
threats of a violent death during a "judgement day"; which is always "any day now". 

c.)
threats of becoming estranged or judged-and-diminished in the eyes of friends and family 
for anyone who begins to seriously ~finds fault~ or leaves their ideological ingroup. 

19. Their Icon of Power checks off every box in the diagnostic criteria for (malignant and grandiose) Narcissistic Personality Disorder (and probably several other Major Personality Disorders). 
But they still regard him/them as "perfect" and not bound by the same standards as normal people. 

20. Their Icon of Power is fantastically needy, emotionally fragile, and codependent.
They are also un-just, abusive, and the opposite of everything they claim to be.
However, ... 

21. Adherents are incentivized to either:
* ignore all that, 
or 

* redefine those words to mean their polar opposite,
or
* nullify the meaning of those words,
or
* gaslight observers into feeling foggy about those matters,
or
* emotionally blackmail observers to feel bad for noticing. 

22. They have taken a personal vow of loyalty to their religion's narrative;
under penalty of death-or-worse.

23. They either don't realize 
or don't want to think about 
how:
being ~loyal to any narrative~ 
is incompatible with:
the pursuit of truth.  

24. They LOVE researching "facts". 
However,
all discoveries must already conform
(or else be creatively made to conform)
to their oath of loyalty to their group's narrative. 

Here's how the historian Dr Josh Bowen explains it (as he quotes an even more famous historian)
[starting at time index 22:38]



25. They value logic too;
but logical fallacies are treated as-if those were the purest form of logic; whenever the "faithful" use logical fallacies. 
 However,
whenever a critic ~seems to be~ using logical fallacies,
it suddenly becomes wrong to use logical fallacies. 
 
26. During debates with critics, 
religious fundamentalists use the unwritten
(but universal) playbook for covert clinical Narcissists. 

27.  Note:
Not all religious fundamentalists are clinical narcissists.
 But they have all been trained
and incentivized
to emulate that disorder.

That makes it often-difficult for anyone to know if the fundie is really a clinical NPD or is just faking it. 

Expect them to intentionally and aggressively mispresent much of what you say,
along with much of what they themselves have said or done. 

 Expect them also to malign your personal character. 

Expect them also to play the victim; 
while accusing you of playing the victim. 

 For them, this is a battle of social dominance and  personal value.]

And now, back to the blog:

 It's rare for an atheist to 'stir the pot' in Stoicism group, or family gatherings, or anywhere there's a mix of religious and non-religious people 
gathered for non-religious reasons. 

But when they do, at least it's actually topic-appropriate for the group.
And that thread (the one I started this blog about) was a good example of it. 

So here come the fundies;
defending their over-invested egos. 

Here's how some of it unfolded: 

Some random Christian Fundie posted this:

"this kind of post is more about bigging them selfs up. Putting others down or belittling them is not very productive. It smacks of ignorance and judgement. Life hits everybody, even religous people. It takes alot of courage to keep going in a world that constantly belittles faith.

---
That seemed, to me, like ~as good a place as any~ 
for me to jump into the mosh pit. 
:) 

So I replied with:

So then ... it takes a lot of courage

to keep being a person of:

a.) non-Christian faith,

or

b.) no religious faith,

in a world where Christians constantly belittle people in both of those categories? 

Now, at this point, I'm just easing my way 
into the fray. 

Notice:
 I didn't make any statements.
I didn't express any views. 
I didn't make any claims or accusations.
I merely asked him a question; to get clarification of what he's trying to say. 

He replied with this:

 you could say both, why would it need to be either or? Which would invalidate the post which was my point. You know Christians don't stop anti theists from their beliefs but atheists societies have oppressed religious people all the time.

I know you think Christians belittle you. But they don't. It's anti theists who write a constant never ending stream of books attacking religon. It's almost like they don't like people believing other things. Even this post is evidence of belittling. The poster seems to think Christians are privillaged or have an easier life. Which is strange. I wonder why they think that.

Finally.
The conversation is starting to get interesting. 

So now, I continue, ... 

Addressing the things random-fundie said:

1. "you could say both, why would it need to be either or?"
--
I just wanted further clarification about your views on just that one specific matter. 
I wasn't really trying to make a point of my own; 
yet. 
;) 
-----------------------------------------------
2.
" Which would invalidate the post which was my point."
--
Except that you're wrong.

The major religions specialize in the basic idea of "take comfort, strength, and courage ... from a "Father" ... as a child in his arms"
as opposed to:
not having that (conceptualized) super-parent
and thus developing those strengths from within.

Mentally 'walking alone' clearly
a.) requires
and
b.) logically cultivates
a more autonomous adult disposition.

This is one of the many ways that
~literal versions of Abrahamic religions~
 are starkly incompatible with Stoicism.

But until now,
 I wasn't planning to raise any of these issues here.

Here are some links to some other ways in which fundamentalist and moderate Christianity are incompatible with Stoicism:

["Does Christianity Direct Us To Seek Validation From A Super-Daddy?"

Christianity Is Practically The Same as Stoicism. So You Should Join Us! 

"Revisiting The Blatant Incompatibility Between Stoicism And Christianity "

--------------------------------------------------

3.
"You know Christians don't stop anti theists from their beliefs"
--
They try.
They just usually fail. 
But claiming they never try or never succeed 
is just flatly wrong. 

Seriously, when's the last time (or even the first time) any of us saw
a billboard,
a picket sign, 
or
heard a knock on the door 
from a Christian organization 
letting everyone know 
"it's perfectly fine to keep believing differently than them"
?

Hell-threats are a blatant form of attempted-coercion. And it does sometimes work. 
 Coercion is a form of psychological violence.
It's also a form of "force". 
 That form of force does sometimes work on people. 
Anti-theists are the least likely people for that to work on. 
The closer to "Christian" someone is on the spectrum, the more likely it is for that bullying to work on them. 
But the whole point of something like Pascal's Wager is to target non-believers with a logically fallacious but extreme threat of harm unless they agree to start believing (or,, at least, agree to start pretending to believe). 

Most Christians also practice religious indoctrination on their children.
Most Christian-Fundamentalists even go so far 
as to seek out opportunities to indoctrinate other people's kid behind parent's backs. 
These are aggressive and abusive forms of attempting to force vulnerable humans into believing what the Christians want them to believe. 

Other examples are available upon request. 

--------------------------------------------------
4. "but atheists societies have oppressed religious people all the time."
--
"Atheist society"

Is that a non-Leprechaun-ist society?
Because my research indicates: 
 every violent dictator since always
has been an
a-Leprechaun-ist.

As it turns out,
believing in Magic People who will punish psychopaths who hurt others  ... 
 only really helps some psychopaths behave better.
 It really doesn't help anyone else. 

Meanwhile,
all the alleged "atheist societies"
 on the usual list of "atheist societies who oppressed religious people" ...
were all actually:
religious societies. 

Hitler,
Stalin, 
the "Kims" of North Korea, 
Etc..

Here is a clip of Christopher Hitchens 
explaining how Christianity primed that society to fall inline with a fascist 'divine-magic' dictator,  
and how Christianity trained Stalin become that dictator. 
 

 

Govt's with religious-fantasy themes
that weren't even bothering to invoke the hollow word "God", ... 
(along with a few which WERE invoking "God"; like Hitler) 
 were functioning as mafias;
as most governments do. 

Here is a video explaining how:
 pretending Hitler was an atheist ... doesn't exonerate a very large swath of Christianity from the FACT that they caused, joined, and supported his Reich.
 



Here is a quote from 
(and a link to)
The United States Holocaust Museum 
about what caused that holocaust:

"Our realization (is) that the pervasive antisemitism and anti-Judaism in Christian circles helped foster the attitudes that culminated in the Holocaust ..."


Next, here's a video explaining how Bibles are actually not anti/against ANY of the things Hitler said and did. 

The actually-good iterations of Christian morality have actually been derived from secular values; but then dishonestly rebranded as "Biblical". 




Christianity caused the holocaust. 

Same as it caused the earlier holocaust of the Native American indigenous nations. 

Same as it necessitated and worsened the American Civil War. 

Same as it carried out witch hunts, crusades, inquisitions, and countless other atrocities.  

Same as it continues to be the primary driver of LGBT suicides (even among LGBT children). 

Looking back,
to learn from actual history, ...

Since all the Christian and Islamic cults are ALSO Mafias, ...

A violent turf war naturally ensued 
between the quasi-religious, fascist regimes they cultivated 
vs
the rival Christian mafias who had lost power. 

Christianity sowed magical-thinking, hyper-conservative, patriarchal, violently-entitled, authoritarianism in those societies. 

They created a monster (originally intended to do their own bidding)
which they ultimately failed to control.
And then that regime started to devour its creators.

Those dictators knew the authoritarian Christians would never stop trying to amass enough power to overthrow it.  

Those dictators didn't realize there were better ways to disarm the threat posed by Christian-Mafia fundamentalists. 
They only knew how to use violence; because that's what Christian-Fundamentalists taught them. 

 But guess who remained innocent, in all of that? 
Humanists. 

--------------------------------------------------
5.
"I know you think Christians belittle you."
--
Only when they preach.
But I never take it personally. 

They usually just deny the value of everyone who isn't one of them;
all at once.
They are, at least, efficient that way. 🙂

-----------------------------------------
6.
"But they don't. "
--
Wait.
Christians don't ever belittle or oppress others? 

Have you ever actually been to Earth?
--------------------------------------
7.
"It's anti theists who write a constant never ending stream of books attacking religon."
--

Various writers, 
with various relevant expertise
were finding  
~accurate and warranted faults~
in:
specific concepts, attitudes, and behaviors.

Some of those specific concepts, attitudes, and behaviors
are unique to certain types of religions.

And yet, some are just ~especially bad~
in
(and
because of)
certain religions. 

Now, let's be clear about this:

Someone's gotta do it.

Someone's gotta stand up for
integrity; 
if our species is going to have a chance
to finish growing up. 

If you always think there is a hover-parent watching, 
you'll never find the opportunity
nor the courage 
to outgrow that dependence. 

Those writers weren't attacking any person;
nor any literal deities. 
 
They were trying to liberate everyone;
through civil, courageous, constructive dialogue and education.  

 And guess what?
 It's working.
That's why Christianity is losing members so fast
that it will become a minority in America in my lifetime. 

 #Progress.

Those religions can't withstand the scrutiny.
And clearly, you realize that. 
So you attempt to emotionally blackmail everyone around you
into feeling BAD for speaking openly and honestly about it.  

Here is exactly how that works:

And here's a better solution:

To very ironically quote a Bible here, ...

"Get out of her, my people; 
if you do not want to share in her sins".
-------------------------------
8.
"It's almost like they don't like people believing other things."
--
Right.
That's why atheists go around threatening everyone with a violent death and/or eternal torture under the feet of a mythical, lovingly-violent Mob Boss.

Oh wait.
No.
That's just conservative, 
fundamentalist and moderate Christians
issuing all those mafia-styled "friendly warnings".

Warnings
to everyone who refuses to fall to our knees in submission to a "God" ...

by submitting to those humans;

 as an authority over every meaningful facet of our lives.

And before long,
one-way-or-another,
it's also gonna cost us lots of ca$h.




And who are all those "friendly warnings" directed at?
We all know the answer to that. 
They aim those @ literally everyone who isn't a Christian,
and also
@ everyone who doesn't do Christianity "correctly".

Meanwhile,
I can't remember the last time I saw
 "IN NO GOD WE TRUST"
plastered on America's money,
cop-car-bumpers,
court house plaques,
and public school hallways.

Let's not get confused about which people go around planting turf flags in every domain;
like they own it all;
including Social Media groups that have fuckall (in other words: nothing at all) to do with their religion. 

 But their flag-planting doesn't end there.
Nope.

They also claim: 
Love,
Justice,
Family,
Sex,
Marriage,
Hope,
Joy,
(pagan) holidays,
etc etc.

It's always "Our icon (or group) invented that,
or has the sole-best and/or truest version of it".

But what it means to be a "new atheist" 
is to be finally free (because we fought and WON that freedom) 
to stand up to the saboteurs of our world. 

Meanwhile,

The ~literally-demonized~
(non-whites, mixed-race-couples, LGBT, atheists, etc)
have had to defend their equal rights;
 in Civil Rights Movements and court battles.

And every time the Christian-religious-conservatives/fundamentalists ~lose~ one of those battles, ...
they rewrite oral history and pretend they were always on the winning-and-loving side of it;
like maybe people been out here
fighting against literally-nobody for their rights.

All the while,
the Christian moderates
(along with under-educated but 'well intending' supporters)
uphold social taboos against anyone calling it out for the hyper-abusive, societally-destructive, Mafia Cult Grift that it is.

This video covers the basics. 
But it doesn't put ALL of evil Christian-cult's business on blast. 
For the rest of it,
we have history books,
and books written by well-informed rational skeptics, 
and the nightly news. 

But all that monstrous behavior is to be expected;
again and again and again.
Why?
Because that entire religious domain was created
by Clinical Narcissist, mafia-cult grifters
for Clinical Narcissist, mafia-cult grifters.

So of course they gotta gaslight everyone
like there's no tomorrow.

Meanwhile,
they keep
claiming,
hoping,
and
trying to make sure
there literally won't be a tomorrow;

at least, not for anyone who thinks differently than them.

9.
"Even this post is evidence of belittling."
--
When *facts
 feel like an attack,
it's good reason to stop and ask yourself 
if you might be on the wrong side of things.

*especially:
completely on-topic facts;
like:
how Christianity
* involves less courage than atheism,
*Discourages people from taking responsibility for their own life, 
and
* invokes cheat-method,
self-infantilizing "courage";
- and is therefor incompatible with Stoicism.

These are exactly the sorts of things we really should be talked about in a Stoicism group;
if we are serious about helping others become more stoic.
-----------------------------------------
10.
"The poster seems to think Christians are privillaged"
--
They are.

---------------------------------------
11.
"or have an easier life."

Their leaders do. 

Meanwhile, 
they be out there making literally-everyone's lives harder; 
setting fire after fire in innocent people's lives;
just so they can exploit
the rampant vulnerabilities, 
sufferings,
 and sheer terror
those religions continues to
orchestrate,
fuel,
spark,
fan, 
and profit from. 



Global arsonists;
selling fraudulent afterlife/fire insurance to anyone who barely escapes with their lives. 

"Dear Christian. 
Why doesn't your god prevent horrible things from happening to the innocent?

In fact, why does your book say he personally has caused so much suffering and death?

And why does your religion keep honoring that tradition? 

"Dear wicked world.
In his wisdom, our GOD realizes that whomever might live through such horrible experiences, ..
might thus be so humbled by the crushing weight of it all ... that they might CRY OUT ... desperate for relief. 

-at which time,
HE, through us, may offer that relief;

if only the broken will surrender to HIS authority (NOT the Stoic's god; nor any other pagan god. But our GOD)
over their lives; 
by surrendering to the authority that WE wield over them;
in his name.

And then we,
with joyous hearts, 
shall receive and benefit
from all of their great personal sacrifices;
for as long as they may struggle on this cursed Earth." 
 

And to help salsify their HOLD over the mentally conquered, ...
conquering masters teach their sheep  
the songs of slaves. 
--------------------------------------------
 12.
"Which is strange. I wonder why they think that."
--
 Again.
Facts. 
They just happen to know some. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/stoicismconvo/posts/1844287529280982/?comment_id=1844416519268083&reply_comment_id=1844423055934096&notif_id=1667778848323449&notif_t=group_comment_mention