Someone finally explained Christianity to me. I returned the favor.
They explained like this:
"Christ died for your inherited and previous done sins, and knowing that will help you not sin anymore. God is great. We human messed up. Christ came and give us "get out of jail free card". God is that great! And because we are grateful, we christians are not adulteres murderers liers etc. Sry for my bad english
"
---
---
In reply, I offered this:
I appreciate the civil and thoughtful reply.
And I really do understand all of those concepts.
But at the same time, I don't know what happened.
I wasn't there.
Stories about that guy are some very interesting rumors.
And I generally expect at least some of it happened.
Maybe some guy named Jesus (a common name) really did hear voices in his head.
Maybe those voices really did claim to be his cult's favorite deity.
Maybe he did start to believe (about himself) that he was a literal "son" of that deity.
Maybe those voices did eventually tell him to kill himself.
Maybe he did argue and plead with the voices; to not make him do it.
Maybe those voices really did finally pressure him into it.
Maybe Jesus then set out to manipulate other men into killing him (an iron-age equivalent to "Suicide by cop").
Maybe he did lose his battle with mental illness.
Maybe he didn't realize that's what it was.
Maybe that did crush the hopes of his very tiny cult; who had hoped he was the "messiah" who was prophesied to lead the Jews into military conquest over their oppressor's; to establish a Jewish theocratic kingdom.
Maybe one of his friends had a post-bereavement hallucination that he was alive again.
Maybe they spread that idea.
Maybe that inspired someone to re-invent the meaning of the Jewish texts; so that the messiah was supposed to die for their sins.
Maybe that eventually grew into a larger and more complicated set of ideas and legends.
Maybe someone eventually wrote down the version of the legends they heard.
We could even speculate (wishfully) that the magical events and promises were all true.
I just don't have a way to know which things happened.
But to become a Christian, I would have to agree to pretend to know.
That's why it's called "faith". Because it's not knowledge.
I could try to develop a belief in the magical parts.
I could try.
But first I'd need a good reason to try. And then I'd have an "up-hill battle" trying to psyche myself into it.
I realize that some apologists are very skilled at teaching people how to gaslight themselves.
I just don't have a good reason to do that to myself.
I was raised in the JW version of it.
I was exposed to the various mainstream versions too.
When I realized the JWs were just lying and manipulating my headspace,
I then realized the popular Christian-themed factions do the same thing.
Science says the Universe, our planet, and humanity
have existed for very very very much longer than Bible writers imagined.
Science could be wrong about almost anything.
But I'd need to live long enough for about 5 more lifetimes, as a scientist in a different field each time, in order for me to really verify or disprove what science says about all of that.
And all the while, it remains mathematically impossible for that many independent scientists (most of whom are Theists. And most of those are Christians) to be part of a globally coordinated conspiracy to ~hide the truth~ about how their respective fields secretly agree with the biblical stories.
Meanwhile,
if there was no literal Adam and Eve, then the entire Christian premise falls apart.
Even if there was a literal Adam and Eve,
the entire Christian premise is a bizarre and un-rational mix of older cult ideas; like "dying and rising gods", scapegoating and human sacrifice.
I also don't accept the premise that I'm responsible for what some distant ancestors might have done to upset a god.
I'm only responsible for myself and how my choices affect others in the world and era I find myself living in.
If some people made a god mad ages ago, ... that's between those people and that god.
It's none of my business.
So when you say "We human messed up. " it's like saying "we lost The Super Bowl" (or some other major sport event).
There is no "we".
I wasn't there.
I wasn't on that team.
I wasn't even alive when that game was played.
In fact, qualified historians say that game never even happened.
As for my previous character-failings and unethical behaviors, ...
I have worked past many of those.
I'm "not that guy" anymore.
So for those very specific points of personal failure, ...
I have "died to my former self" and risen as a new person with a clean slate; a clean slate that I earned by the courage it took to do honest, internal personal inventory. And then the work it took to grow into 'being' someone else.
As for the various personal failures that I have not yet grown past, ...
I'd still rather be accountable to myself and others
to keep working on those things.
If someone (anyone; even a "god"; whatever that is)
wants to help with any of that, they are welcome to offer that help.
But there's nothing about mentally transferring accountability onto an innocent scapegoat ... that helps me work past the failings that I still struggle against.
If anything, that mental gimmick would just cause me to become lazy about those growth-struggles, because then I'd no longer feel like it was so important;
if I felt "forgiven" and "washed clean" for things I'm still actually guilty of (things I haven't conquered yet).
Meanwhile, if I was "created" imperfect,
then:
whoever/whatever created me imperfect ...
is actually much more responsible for my failings than I am.
It would mean they owe ME an apology.
They'd also owe an apology to everyone I adversely affected along the way due to those inherited failings.
Meanwhile,
the idea that I owe a creator an apology
for how HE made me?
It's wildly irrational and ethically offensive.
Meanwhile I keep remembering a quote from a song.
"Do not read beauty magazines. They will only make you feel ... ugly".
That's what Christian texts and ideology are designed to do.
It's the same thing.
Present the entirely unrealistic and partially nebulous ideal of "perfection".
And then get people to weigh themselves against that impossible standard.
Everyone will come up short.
Target their insecurities.
Worsen those insecurities.
Condemn them for those insecurities.
And then offer them something to relieve that burdened state;
with the promise that THIS is how they can finally feel worthy of the love, life, and respect that they were unworthy of.
Dress it up as a kindness.
And then tell them it's practically "free";
even though a subscription will ultimately cost them a LOT.
Trap them into a repeating cycle that keeps refreshing that dependency.
Keep reaping their donations (time, energy, ego-praise, money, and other personal sacrifices) as a harvest.
Keep $elling them a cure to an imaginary disease; so that they won't "do works" to conquer their personal failings, nor discover the truth about their imaginary-failings, nor ever really overcome their self-loathing.
As for the idea that "we christians are not adulteres murderers liers etc. "
---
There is no such thing as "we Christians"; not even for Christians.
If any three random Christians were all interviewed by an outsider about the essential "truths" of Christianity (especially as it pertains to modern moral controversies), ...
they would each end up discovering the other two as "heretics".
It's just easy to miss when most Christians are just sitting in pews and nodding,
while some random know-it-all on a mission from GOD spouts catch phrases coded in religious language that could mean almost anything.
Part of that is because "No Two People
Have Ever Read The Same Book".
Whatever you think it says
is whatever your mind creates when you read the words.
Some of the writer's intended meanings will make it successfully into your mind.
But you'll have no awareness of which meanings changed as you read them.
This is among the many reasons for why a Super-Being would have been utterly irresponsible to rely on fallible writers to convey important messages to other humans.
---
Meanwhile, Christians DO keep thinking, feeling, and doing things ... that that Bibles condemn.
Anyone who says they don't ... isn't being honest with themselves.
They might have stopped doing some things.
But they're still doing other things they aren't supposed to be doing.
Meanwhile, the rate of 'bad deeds' among Christians is the same (or worse) compared to the 'bad deeds' of non-believers, on average.
Some individuals have turned their life around after becoming a Christian.
But even more people (all total, globally) fix their own life ... as non-Christians.
Many of those fix their life as someone who doesn't profess any "god".
Christianity
is not
a proven-best (nor only) way to accomplish anything.
It's just "a way" to accomplish some things; but at a very expensive (and dishonestly hidden) set of costs.
"Christ died for your inherited and previous done sins, and knowing that will help you not sin anymore. God is great. We human messed up. Christ came and give us "get out of jail free card". God is that great! And because we are grateful, we christians are not adulteres murderers liers etc. Sry for my bad english
"---
---
In reply, I offered this:
I appreciate the civil and thoughtful reply.
And I really do understand all of those concepts.
But at the same time, I don't know what happened.
I wasn't there.
Stories about that guy are some very interesting rumors.
And I generally expect at least some of it happened.
Maybe some guy named Jesus (a common name) really did hear voices in his head.
Maybe those voices really did claim to be his cult's favorite deity.
Maybe he did start to believe (about himself) that he was a literal "son" of that deity.
Maybe those voices did eventually tell him to kill himself.
Maybe he did argue and plead with the voices; to not make him do it.
Maybe those voices really did finally pressure him into it.
Maybe Jesus then set out to manipulate other men into killing him (an iron-age equivalent to "Suicide by cop").
Maybe he did lose his battle with mental illness.
Maybe he didn't realize that's what it was.
Maybe that did crush the hopes of his very tiny cult; who had hoped he was the "messiah" who was prophesied to lead the Jews into military conquest over their oppressor's; to establish a Jewish theocratic kingdom.
Maybe one of his friends had a post-bereavement hallucination that he was alive again.
Maybe they spread that idea.
Maybe that inspired someone to re-invent the meaning of the Jewish texts; so that the messiah was supposed to die for their sins.
Maybe that eventually grew into a larger and more complicated set of ideas and legends.
Maybe someone eventually wrote down the version of the legends they heard.
We could even speculate (wishfully) that the magical events and promises were all true.
I just don't have a way to know which things happened.
But to become a Christian, I would have to agree to pretend to know.
That's why it's called "faith". Because it's not knowledge.
I could try to develop a belief in the magical parts.
I could try.
But first I'd need a good reason to try. And then I'd have an "up-hill battle" trying to psyche myself into it.
I realize that some apologists are very skilled at teaching people how to gaslight themselves.
I just don't have a good reason to do that to myself.
I was raised in the JW version of it.
I was exposed to the various mainstream versions too.
When I realized the JWs were just lying and manipulating my headspace,
I then realized the popular Christian-themed factions do the same thing.
Science says the Universe, our planet, and humanity
have existed for very very very much longer than Bible writers imagined.
Science could be wrong about almost anything.
But I'd need to live long enough for about 5 more lifetimes, as a scientist in a different field each time, in order for me to really verify or disprove what science says about all of that.
And all the while, it remains mathematically impossible for that many independent scientists (most of whom are Theists. And most of those are Christians) to be part of a globally coordinated conspiracy to ~hide the truth~ about how their respective fields secretly agree with the biblical stories.
Meanwhile,
if there was no literal Adam and Eve, then the entire Christian premise falls apart.
Even if there was a literal Adam and Eve,
the entire Christian premise is a bizarre and un-rational mix of older cult ideas; like "dying and rising gods", scapegoating and human sacrifice.
I also don't accept the premise that I'm responsible for what some distant ancestors might have done to upset a god.
I'm only responsible for myself and how my choices affect others in the world and era I find myself living in.
If some people made a god mad ages ago, ... that's between those people and that god.
It's none of my business.
So when you say "We human messed up. " it's like saying "we lost The Super Bowl" (or some other major sport event).
There is no "we".
I wasn't there.
I wasn't on that team.
I wasn't even alive when that game was played.
In fact, qualified historians say that game never even happened.
As for my previous character-failings and unethical behaviors, ...
I have worked past many of those.
I'm "not that guy" anymore.
So for those very specific points of personal failure, ...
I have "died to my former self" and risen as a new person with a clean slate; a clean slate that I earned by the courage it took to do honest, internal personal inventory. And then the work it took to grow into 'being' someone else.
As for the various personal failures that I have not yet grown past, ...
I'd still rather be accountable to myself and others
to keep working on those things.
If someone (anyone; even a "god"; whatever that is)
wants to help with any of that, they are welcome to offer that help.
But there's nothing about mentally transferring accountability onto an innocent scapegoat ... that helps me work past the failings that I still struggle against.
If anything, that mental gimmick would just cause me to become lazy about those growth-struggles, because then I'd no longer feel like it was so important;
if I felt "forgiven" and "washed clean" for things I'm still actually guilty of (things I haven't conquered yet).
Meanwhile, if I was "created" imperfect,
then:
whoever/whatever created me imperfect ...
is actually much more responsible for my failings than I am.
It would mean they owe ME an apology.
They'd also owe an apology to everyone I adversely affected along the way due to those inherited failings.
Meanwhile,
the idea that I owe a creator an apology
for how HE made me?
It's wildly irrational and ethically offensive.
Meanwhile I keep remembering a quote from a song.
"Do not read beauty magazines. They will only make you feel ... ugly".
That's what Christian texts and ideology are designed to do.
It's the same thing.
Present the entirely unrealistic and partially nebulous ideal of "perfection".
And then get people to weigh themselves against that impossible standard.
Everyone will come up short.
Target their insecurities.
Worsen those insecurities.
Condemn them for those insecurities.
And then offer them something to relieve that burdened state;
with the promise that THIS is how they can finally feel worthy of the love, life, and respect that they were unworthy of.
Dress it up as a kindness.
And then tell them it's practically "free";
even though a subscription will ultimately cost them a LOT.
Trap them into a repeating cycle that keeps refreshing that dependency.
Keep reaping their donations (time, energy, ego-praise, money, and other personal sacrifices) as a harvest.
Keep $elling them a cure to an imaginary disease; so that they won't "do works" to conquer their personal failings, nor discover the truth about their imaginary-failings, nor ever really overcome their self-loathing.
As for the idea that "we christians are not adulteres murderers liers etc. "
---
There is no such thing as "we Christians"; not even for Christians.
If any three random Christians were all interviewed by an outsider about the essential "truths" of Christianity (especially as it pertains to modern moral controversies), ...
they would each end up discovering the other two as "heretics".
It's just easy to miss when most Christians are just sitting in pews and nodding,
while some random know-it-all on a mission from GOD spouts catch phrases coded in religious language that could mean almost anything.
Part of that is because "No Two People
Have Ever Read The Same Book".
Whatever you think it says
is whatever your mind creates when you read the words.
Some of the writer's intended meanings will make it successfully into your mind.
But you'll have no awareness of which meanings changed as you read them.
This is among the many reasons for why a Super-Being would have been utterly irresponsible to rely on fallible writers to convey important messages to other humans.
---
Meanwhile, Christians DO keep thinking, feeling, and doing things ... that that Bibles condemn.
Anyone who says they don't ... isn't being honest with themselves.
They might have stopped doing some things.
But they're still doing other things they aren't supposed to be doing.
Meanwhile, the rate of 'bad deeds' among Christians is the same (or worse) compared to the 'bad deeds' of non-believers, on average.
Some individuals have turned their life around after becoming a Christian.
But even more people (all total, globally) fix their own life ... as non-Christians.
Many of those fix their life as someone who doesn't profess any "god".
Christianity
is not
a proven-best (nor only) way to accomplish anything.
It's just "a way" to accomplish some things; but at a very expensive (and dishonestly hidden) set of costs.
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