Christianity vs FACTS

Here's the Christian-Fundamentalist's spontaneous forum-lecture I'm responding to:
---

1. We do know what He regards as best, by His word and the fact that He walked among us, fully God, fully human, lived the perfect life free of sin, died and rose again in accordance with scripture.
2. I agree, we can't rely on our feelings to determine the truth. Mormons say they have prayed about it and feel that the Mormon texts are the truth, as do Muslims, Hindus and Christians. Truth does not stem from what we feel. Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
We are separate from other creatures according to God's word. None other were created in His image. Totally made up stories? The OT is essentially the history of the Jewish people. You think it's all just fairy tales? We know Jesus was real the same way we know Abraham Lincoln was real. Through reliable eyewitness testimony and records. We can today in the 21st century go to the original Greek and Hebrew texts of the Bible and translate them directly into English. We don't lose anything in translation.
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever.
In terms of why the Bible is true and other religious texts aren't, there is significantly more documentation for the books of the Bible than there are for other historically recognized authors and literature, including Plato and others. Excavation sites and artifacts also provide evidence that many of the events, people, and places mentioned in the Bible really existed, including the Hittite people and the city of Jericho. The Gospels give multiple points of view and, in many cases, were written within the lifetimes of the people who witnessed the events recorded in the Bible. Writers focused on different aspects, but they had the same message: Jesus taught, healed, performed miracles, died on the cross, and rose from the dead.
Do you sincerely think it's all lies? What is true then in your eyes? How do you know George Washington was real, genesis khan, any historical figure? You have Christianity to thank for creating the environment possible for science to flourish and allow you to form these opinions and theories that we are nothing but meaningless stardust and chemical reactions.
Your 3rd point, actually, it's our fault! We have fallen from God's original purpose for us. It is His fault we have free will yes, but we made the choices that lead us astray from the start, and we continue to do it through our sin. Your 4th point, again, we do have a way to know what He thinks, His word. If Loki created everything, it would automatically make everything he says the truth. You as a creation stand on fallacy if you think that you know better than the being who created the reality in which you live.
...
 you are clearly seeking the truth, and I am sorry you have been misled by this world.
I pray that you come to know the one true God. If you do indeed keep seeking the truth, you will end up looking right at Him. As He is the way, the truth, and the life. You are valuable, you know that love is real. Atheism says the opposite. Your life has meaning and purpose, and I hope that you come to Christ and find it one day. God bless you sister! I am praying for you

 ----------------------------------
My reply:
[Note:

He addressed this to someone else (a friend of mine).

 She linked the discussion to me; curious about what I'd say. 

It would take too long to address every single thing he says.
I'm certainly willing to.  But, here, I've just chosen a list of crucial points to highlight.

All words in BLUE are clickable links
I will add more academic support for my positions, as time permits; in future edits].
---

Here are my thoughts on the matter:

 Leading archeologists,

and
the majority consensus among archeologists
agree that:

* Moses was either mostly fictional
or
(most probably) entirely fictional.

They say the same thing about:

*The Exodus,

*Abraham,

*Adam and Eve,

*Noah,

many other key biblical figures.
and many other key biblical events.

Bibles get a LOT of history wrong.

It also contains as lot of forgeries.

It also contains a lot of so-called "prophecy" that was dishonestly written during
and after

the events they pretended to write about in advance.

They also contain some actual predictions
which turned out to be failed predictions.

They also get most of the science they mentioned:
entirely wrong.

They thought the sun came into existence
several "days" after the earth.
That's wrong; no matter what you think "days" meant.

They thought the sky was a solid metal dome.
They called that the "firmament".
They were wrong about that too.



They thought the moon and sun were respectively independent light sources.
That's wrong.

They thought outer space was a vast ocean of water;
and that holes in the sky would let the rain in.
That's wrong.

They thought the earth's vegetation grew before there was a sun.
That's wrong.

They thought mankind was directly created into existence around the year 4000 BCE.
That's wrong.
Even if you toy around with theoretical numbers, to push the date back another thousands years or so. It would still be fantastically wrong.

They pretended the Hebrew belief system and Yahweh-ism was the first religious belief system.
That's impressively wrong too.

Hinduism is the oldest currently practiced faith-based ideology/religion.
And there were many far older religions which came and went before them.

OT Hebrews were the Canaanites.

They gradually developed a different religious and ethnic identity.

The Hebrews were POLYTHEISTS when they copied and adapted other/older religions' stories to create the Torah with.

They didn't become monotheists until they were conquered by the Babylonians; merely 5 or so centuries before the beginning of Christianity.

When they switched to monotheism, they re-worked their stories,
to be mostly (not even entirely) monotheistic.


Yahweh developed gradually.

He was made from parts of older dead/defunct gods.
He was, in effect, a Frankenstein's Monster-God.

One of the gods they scavenged for lore-parts was called "El".

Going even further back in history, "El" was first name of their entire pantheon of gods.

The name "Yahweh" is only even assumed to have been intended as a name.
It's actually extrapolated from a shorthand sentence; based on the lore of what a god said to "Moses", when that character asked for his name.

That sentence was NOT "I AM", nor "I AM THAT I AM".
That rendering is an apologetic invention.
In truth, scholars admit they don't know what how the source text for that passage should be translated. And that they aren't even sure the story intended to mean that deity was revealing a name.

Christianity was built upon many severe misunderstandings of the Hebrew texts.

Many of the texts which they cite as prophecies about Jesus ... were actually only talking about the entire Jewish people; not about a messiah.

The Christian texts are made from parts of stories and concept from other religious cultures.
Most of it was borrowed and adapted from the Hellenistic Greeks.
That's why there are parallels between Christianity and Stoicism.

The anonymous writers of the so-called "gospels" were most likely elites; drawing from Greek and Roman literary concepts. 

NONE of the Christian texts date back to the time they allege their "Christ" existed.

Only about half of the letters traditionally attributed to Paul
were actually written by him.
But his writings came first, among the Christian texts.

He didn't even begin to write about any of it, until decades after the alleged time of the Christian Christ.

In his writings, he claimed that he had NOT heard anything about the gospel events from any human being. He claimed he got it all directly from visions.

He also insisted that Jesus never performed any earthly miracles; not even in front of witnesses.


The so-called Gospels were written even later. 

They were all written by NON-eyewitnesses; repeating and adding to the rumors.
 
They don't even agree with each other much about the details of what happened ... except for the parts Matthew-book and Luke-book copied verbatim from Mark-book.


Later, came what we call "John".

Each of those books tries to one-up the versions that came before it.
Thus, we end up with John-book telling us about the most grand miracles ... which apologists expect us to assume the other "gospel" writers just forgot to mention, and (again) which Paul was sure never happened. 

Meanwhile, some of the things in the "gospel" stories ...
literally cannot have happened.
 
Quirinius didn't become governor of Syria until several years after Herod died.
But we're told in Christian gospels that Jesus was born while Herod was still king AND while Quirinus was governor of Syria. 
 Those claims can't both be true. 

We're also told that all the local graves had dead saints climb out of the ground. And then they went around testifying about Jesus. 
 If THAT had happened, it would have been a MAJOR historical event; which would have tons of archaeological support. 
 But it didn't. So there isn't. 

Each one of those books was meant to COMPETE with the ones that came before it; as these anonymous writers each tried to out-awesome the others, in their respective bids to become influential fan-fiction writers for that niche.

According to renowned New Testament scholar,  Bart Ehrman, ...

Other than the gospel stories (some of which never got canonized; and NONE of which were written by eye witnesses):



Before objections to this claim get thrown my way, ...
consider:

Tacitus wasn't even BORN until long after 
Jesus is alleged to have died. 
And it's actually not certain that he even mentioned the Christian Jesus or the Christian Christ. 


As for Josephus,
most of what he is cited for by Christians has been exposed as forgeries. 

At most, he found it credible that a real person inspired or started the religion. 
But that point isn't in dispute.  

There simply aren't any known documents or archeological objects in existence 
from even a single eye witness 
for the existence of a non-divine version of Jesus.

Meanwhile,
ZERO non-Christian scholars think there's any evidence at all for a divine God-man. 

But you live and learn in a religious-cultural bubble; where "knowledge" is carefully and diligently filtered, to protect your fragile, patriarchal,
clinically Narcissistic culture
(which doubles as a mafia-type Protection Racket)
from losing the "sheep" it controls and exploits. 

So whenever scholars (or scientists) agrees with a single item,
you people shout "See. We should listen to the qualified experts in their respective fields. They know what they're talking about. This is how we avoid relying on our emotions!".

And yet
every time the qualified experts REFUTE what your cult-ure says (which is: usually),
you all shout "Pay no attention to those worldly people with their fancy titles. They are under the power of the Wicked One.
FAITH is what proves itself!"
--
As for the claim "You have Christianity to thank for creating the environment possible for science to flourish and allow you to form these opinions and theories that we are nothing but meaningless stardust and chemical reactions."
 that claim
has been *thoroughly debunked as well. 
(clickable link. Video is called "The Theft Of Our Values. by DarkMatter2525)

See also:
This:
 ("appropriating morality | how 'the Judeo-Christian tradition' takes false credit". by TheraminTrees

and 
This: Western Civilization is Based on Judeo-Christian Values – Debunked. by RationalityRules

--
--
If it wasn't for false-facts,
logical fallacies,
emotional manipulations,
gaslighting,
and constantly contradicting yourselves (and each other),
you lot wouldn't have anything to say at all.

Keep praying.
At least that will help shelter you from growing up and taking responsibility.

https://youtu.be/h_UmuEBmS5k


Comments

  1. Wow! So many assumptions, hatred and ad hominem. So what do you believe, internet stranger? Are we more than just products of evolution that was somehow unhindered through millions of years in a chaotic universe? Why did you just take all that time to refute my position with your "facts" and somewhat clickable links? I have a guess... because you, like myself and the rest of human kind, is so desperate to rebel against our meany pants skydaddy, that we will go to great lengths to convince ourselves that He doesn't exist, so that we can lift any responsibility to action from our own shoulders. And you think I pray to lift responsibility from myself? You're obviously an intelligent person, so why do you find it worth your time to dispute with plebians like myself over such silly things as sky daddy and his stupid rules? I am wholly responsible for all my actions. I have free will, given to me by the creator of this universe. What do you have? How can the naturalistic narrative explain our love, freewill, and the inception of life from non life? Anyways, God bless you! I sincerely pray that in your pursuit of the truth, you come to the ultimate truth, way and life. Have a good night/day/life.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I only just now realized there was a reply posted to this blog.
      I will be more attentive to this in the future.

      Regardless of our disagreements about this,
      I am thankful for you sharing your viewpoints.
      I will certainty reflect on these.

      For now, my initial responses to each of these statements are as follows:
      ---------------

      1. Wow! So many assumptions, hatred and ad hominem."
      ---
      I look forward to finding out why you see it that way.
      I haven't read the rest of your reply yet.
      I'll read each part individually, and then share my thoughts about each.
      ------------------------------------------------------

      2. So what do you believe, internet stranger? Are we more than just products of evolution that was somehow unhindered through millions of years in a chaotic universe? "
      --

      More than the sum of our parts?
      Yes. I think so.
      So then, on this point we agree.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      3. Why did you just take all that time to refute my position with your "facts" and somewhat clickable links?
      ----
      I TOO wish Google's links were more clickable.
      This is why I'm looking into other platforms for my blogs.
      Most readers are going to agree with you and I about this.
      It doesn't work very well.
      I'm really surprised that Google didn't create something that works better.

      As for why I bothered at all?
      Because the issues matter; mostly because of how they affect people's lives; including the relationships they have with other people and with themselves.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------

      4. I have a guess... because you, like myself and the rest of human kind,
      ---
      I like how you're wording this.
      It's very inclusive.
      It's about US rather than a divisive narrative.
      I am cautiously optimistic about where this is leading.
      -----------------------------------------------------------

      Delete

    2. 5. "is so desperate to rebel against our meany pants skydaddy, that we will go to great lengths to convince ourselves that He doesn't exist, so that we can lift any responsibility to action from our own shoulders."
      --
      my hopes have been shattered. lol

      But that's ok.

      So that theory does make sense; from within the context of the religious narrative you're speaking from.

      But at the same time, I have to be honest and speak from my own.
      My own narrative is different.
      This shouldn't be a surprise.
      So then my reasons
      literally *can't be* the reasons I would-have-had
      if i shared your narrative.
      So then your guess about my reasons
      automatically
      just aren't going to be correct.

      I am no more "rebelling" against any specific or general idea of "Bible-God"
      than you are rebelling against a Muslim God, or Native American/Indigenous "spirits", etc..
      Just as soldiers for the US military
      are not "rebelling" against the Westboro Baptist's "God".

      People simply don't (ever) "rebel" against conceptualizations of entities they don't believe in.

      At this moment, hopefully, this is so clearly obvious to you, that:
      maybe you might become more open to questioning other claims made by your religious culture. Because if they can get something so *obvious* so wrong, then what else are they getting wrong?
      ---------------------------------------------------

      6. regarding the idea of:
      me
      trying to
      "lift any responsibility to action from (my) own shoulders.".

      How so?
      I mean, I already didn't feel any morally-themed obligations
      to any voodoo-based narratives,
      or an "animal spirit",
      or an ancestor-spirit,
      or the Islamic Allah.
      or the Jehovah's Witnesses Arch-Angel "Jesus" or his dad "Jehovah",
      etc etc.

      Instead, I feel morally-themed obligations to other humans, other animals,
      and to myself.
      Notice, if you will,
      that my rejection of your religion's religious narrative
      does absolutely nothing to reduce or remove that for me.

      So then, which obligations have I dodged?

      The only theoretical obligations we could wonder if
      i'm trying to avoid
      would be special obligations to any particular concept of a "God".
      But since I already don't believe your "God" exists in the same sense that you suppose he exists,
      that can't be it.

      Plus, there actually are versions OF "Christianity" where the special-obligations are nearly none.
      Just "believe he exists" and then "be happy".
      It would be silly for me (or anyone) to think "I'm sure he exists, and I do want to be happy,
      BUT >>>
      i'm going to pretend he doesn't exist, because I feel like rebelling against him
      ***for no reason****, since there can't BE a reason to rebel against a "God" I think really exists, if that "God" isn't asking anything else FROM me other than the belief that he exists".
      It would be an entirely nonsensical notion.
      Literally NO ONE in the world thinks that way.
      So then, automatically, I must not be thinking that way either.

      Notice:
      I'm not a DEIST.
      But deism's "God" asks nothing from me.
      So there's no responsibilities to avoid.
      So that must not be what happening here.
      ----------------------------------
      7.
      "And you think I pray to lift responsibility from myself? "
      --
      I'm sure there are a number of reasons you pray.

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      8.
      "You're obviously an intelligent person,"
      --
      Thanks.
      You too.
      :)
      ---------------------------------------------------------------

      Delete
    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    4. 9. "so why do you find it worth your time to dispute with plebians like myself over such silly things as sky daddy and his stupid rules?"
      ---
      I actually answered that earlier today, before I even realized you asked.
      That blog is entitled "How False Spirituality Divides Us From Ourselves; And From Each Other.

      You see, I want "a close personal relationship" with you.
      And I want you to be able to have that with other people, and with yourself.
      But you'd have to meet yourself first.
      And your religion's in the way of you being able do to that.
      My blogs are for the purpose of introspection, education, and harmonization.
      ----------------------------------------------------

      10. I am wholly responsible for all my actions.
      ---
      In principal, I agree with that.
      That is to say, it's is a healthy and productive mindset.
      Cheers!

      -------------------------------------------------------
      11. I have free will,
      --
      Well, no. Not really.
      BUT it is a "metaphorical truth"; in that sense that it's beneficial to think/speak/act as if this were literally true.
      So ok. Sure.
      Hurray for free will. :)
      ---------------------------------------------------------------

      12. given to me by the creator of this universe.
      ---
      Whatever we have
      we got
      from wherever it came.

      So I'll just let the religious language slide under the radar on this.
      My formal reply to that, then, will just be
      "ok".
      ------------------------------------------------------

      13. "What do you have? How can the naturalistic narrative explain our love, freewill, and the inception of life from non life?"
      ---
      That's a MUCH bigger conversation.

      I'll address that as a blog.
      I'll come back to link that here, once it's ready.

      The answers will, of course, be mostly about chemistry and biology.

      There is no such thing as the "supernatural". It's a nonsense word; which literally mean nothing.

      Notice, however, how Deists and Pantheists have no problem at all
      accounting for those things
      with naturalism.

      Physics. That's what generates it all;
      not magic.

      But this doesn't mean we should be any less impressed with any facet of life.

      --------------------------------------------------------------
      14.
      Anyways, God bless you! I sincerely pray that in your pursuit of the truth, you come to the ultimate truth, way and life. Have a good night/day/life."
      ---
      Thanks for that, random religious person.
      :)

      Delete

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