Defending TRUTH and DECENCY Against Apologists
Responding to:
"The debate must be Spirituality (consciousness primordial to matter) VS Materialism (matter primordial to consciousness) ... all the rest are just variants of these two philosophical/scientific opposite views."
John Trudell on the Christian World View.
Christianity, in all its forms, get a lot things wrong.
Generally speaking, that's fine.
In fact, it's to be expected.
People are fallible.
We get things wrong.
But it's not justifiable for groups which speak on the premise of being deputized and QUALIFIED to represent a perfect Being.
It is an interesting irony
the culture niches of Christianity (and Islam) which try the hardest to get it right ... get it the most wrong.
Thus, we see the LOUDEST of all the Christians ...
are the ones who most greatly misunderstand Jesus.
-for example.
They also are the furthest away from understanding logic, ethics, social science, cognitive science, behavioral science, linguistic science, and spirituality.
Spirituality is:
A subjectively transformative state of awareness
where that subjective person's narrative-perspective (as it pertains to their narrative of identity) gains
empowered peace and clarity
with the realization that they are:
an integral, living, breathing part of a much larger living breathing whole.
That experience does not even need to include
(in fact, in its purest state, does not include)
the consideration of
facts,
or arguments,
or creeds,
or really any philosophical epistemology.
The person (not necessarily humans. Other species of apes, for example, can experience this too. But in our case, humans) might only zoom out far enough for their spirituality include:
one other person,
or a family,
or a tribe,
or a species,
or all life in their local ecosystem,
or the global biological ecosystem,
or the global ecosystem as it includes soil, the wind and the sun,
or the subtly sentient presence of rivers, trees, and mountains,
or the known universe and all of its physics,
or an 'intuited'/felt (or reasoned) presence which goes beyond the known,
or their relationship to their own personal experience with music,
or their relationship to the positive and negative forces of energy itself,
or emergent patterns found in all known forms of life,
or "experiential knowledge" of a larger-than-life "someone" whose fullness extends beyond grasp.
Neither the "simple folk" version of Theists,
nor the "simple folk" version of Christians,
nor the philosophical-elite-ist Christians
have 'dibs',
nor intellectual property rights,
nor a rightful origin-claim ...
to what true spirituality is.
None of you are qualified, either, to tell everyone else what the core or foundation of those other's people's personal identity "is" or "must be".
Thus, none of you are qualified to be an authority about what everyone else's spirituality must be grounded in.
In fact, even if someone shared your theories about the ultimate foundation and cause of our physical reality, ...
it would not be a "spiritual" idea for them UNLESS they experience spirituality from that vantage point.
That would not be automatic.
Nor would it be morally obligatory.
Simple-folk versions of Christians don't "ground their epistemology" in what philosophical debate-bro Christian apologists do.
Those two iterations of spirituality are very different animals.
You can say they share a common core. But they absolutely don't.
Simple-folk Christians may agree that their deity IS (some of) the same things you say it is.
But they aren't "grounding their epistemology" in that.
They are grounding theirs in things like:
emotionally-meaningful personal experiences,
and in cultural tradition,
and in community,
and in the sense that there is a super-Father who loves them,
and in feeling "unworthy'; but loved anyways",
and then tying that into only the most basic (and subjectively interpreted) doctrinal tenets about "salvation".
The only reason Christian-apologetic channels aren't having their comments section FLOODED with Christians telling Debate-me-bro, culture-warring Christians to STOP being so ugly-for-Christ is:
The peaceful kinds of Christians (much like the Amish) aren't here to see it happening.
Many of them don't know it's even a thing.
And those who do ... just enjoy pretending it's not a thing. Because it's ugly.
Meanwhile, it's a coincidence that the debate-me-bro philosophical apologist type Christians are almost entirely politically hyper-conservative and obsessed with atheists.
They are lying to themselves.
In fact, they are hiding from themselves.
If you want to know the true "grounding" of conservative evangelical apologetics, ...
read/listen to some qualified psychiatric doctors and scientists
on the subject of:
What creates a (clinical) Narcissist.
And before you accuse me of tribal bias about this, note: I do not identity as an atheist, nor a liberal, nor a "Social Justice Warrior", nor a "secular humanist". Although, I have a lot in common with secular humanists. Ideological labels and political movements undermine independent thought, by undermining independent identity. I only get along with the actually-decent people. And I never have to guess who those people are. They will tell me, when I'm listening. Clinical narcissism, along with general assholery, is almost-as-common among the atheist debate-me-bro philosophers. That's why I decided not to socially integrate into that social ecosystem. Most (not all; just most) of the "atheist community's" most celebrated champions are what I consider to be "bad people". I just don't call it out (by name) because: organized narcissists hunt in packs. They'll have their flying monkeys do most of that work. And I don't need the grief. Also, very ironically, the mostly-shitty-people on the "atheist" side ... are really really good at combatting against the evils of Christianity and Islam . We have mostly-shitty people on both sides. One side has their mostly-shitty people pushing absolute bullshit. The other side has their mostly-shitty people pushing mostly correct and mostly ethical reasoning. Most of that is just virtue-signaling, as they repeat things that a minority of actually-decent people are saying. One side feels like REALITY is more empowering. So they are assholes in the name of reality. The other side feels like bullshit is more empowering. So they are assholes in the name of bullshit. Meanwhile some actually-decent people are Christians because they are too simple to understand what's happening. At the same time, some actually-decent people are atheists. Simply because nobody is currently able to trick them into religious bullshit. At the same time, some other actually-decent people enjoy a rare and clean version of being "spiritual". However, they too have asshole-counterparts, because the most common REASON people get into non-authoritarian spirituality is: exactly the same reason most people get into authoritarian "spirituality": They want to compensate for un-healed traumas and for a lack of personal empowerment ... by pretending they are extra-special, righteous-yet-humble, wonderfully clever, and have super-powers. So any Christians who think I am speaking from a position of tribal bias ... needs to tell me which "tribe" they suspect I am representing. I call out bullshit everywhere I see it.
And before you accuse me of tribal bias about this, note: I do not identity as an atheist, nor a liberal, nor a "Social Justice Warrior", nor a "secular humanist". Although, I have a lot in common with secular humanists. Ideological labels and political movements undermine independent thought, by undermining independent identity. I only get along with the actually-decent people. And I never have to guess who those people are. They will tell me, when I'm listening. Clinical narcissism, along with general assholery, is almost-as-common among the atheist debate-me-bro philosophers. That's why I decided not to socially integrate into that social ecosystem. Most (not all; just most) of the "atheist community's" most celebrated champions are what I consider to be "bad people". I just don't call it out (by name) because: organized narcissists hunt in packs. They'll have their flying monkeys do most of that work. And I don't need the grief. Also, very ironically, the mostly-shitty-people on the "atheist" side ... are really really good at combatting against the evils of Christianity and Islam . We have mostly-shitty people on both sides. One side has their mostly-shitty people pushing absolute bullshit. The other side has their mostly-shitty people pushing mostly correct and mostly ethical reasoning. Most of that is just virtue-signaling, as they repeat things that a minority of actually-decent people are saying. One side feels like REALITY is more empowering. So they are assholes in the name of reality. The other side feels like bullshit is more empowering. So they are assholes in the name of bullshit. Meanwhile some actually-decent people are Christians because they are too simple to understand what's happening. At the same time, some actually-decent people are atheists. Simply because nobody is currently able to trick them into religious bullshit. At the same time, some other actually-decent people enjoy a rare and clean version of being "spiritual". However, they too have asshole-counterparts, because the most common REASON people get into non-authoritarian spirituality is: exactly the same reason most people get into authoritarian "spirituality": They want to compensate for un-healed traumas and for a lack of personal empowerment ... by pretending they are extra-special, righteous-yet-humble, wonderfully clever, and have super-powers. So any Christians who think I am speaking from a position of tribal bias ... needs to tell me which "tribe" they suspect I am representing. I call out bullshit everywhere I see it.
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