Responding To: Reasons to Believe | Hugh Ross

Today, Youtube notified me of a reply to a comment I made at the beginning of 2023. That comment read "Debate him then. See if you can "correct" him...". -- It's been so long since I watched this video, I couldn't remember what he said.

So I went back to re-watch the intro. It's not really worth my time to watch the entire video all over again; unless someone wants to pay me to do so or if they are at a crossroads and ready to really consider what I'd say about it all. -- But I did (just now) re-watch the intro. And here is my reply: Right off the bat, he says inaccurate and poorly reasoned things. 1. Those passages do not actually refer to "before time"; nor to an absolute beginning of time. So no matter what science says about time and beginnings, it won't help prop up what's in bibles. 2. Referring to a time "before time" is self-contradicting nonsense. 3. Any evidence that person-A is given BUT that person-B was NOT given exactly the same access to ... is: Unjust. Because it puts person-B at a disadvantage for escaping that fate. So if modern science provides greater evidence of something that ancient science had not yet verified, then this would be radically unfair to everyone who was alive back then AND to everyone today who either doesn't learn about it or can't correctly understand it. You guys make "God" out to be a monster. And then you act righteously offended when people notice. 4. When it comes to leaders and the consensus (100%) among currently qualified cosmologists/astrophysicists, the "beginning" they are talking about is the beginning of rapid expansion. They all admit to knowing nothing at all about anything prior to "then" and "that". A few years back, William Lane Craig went up against Sean Carroll to debate this stuff. Craig quoted Alan Guth from a well known and celebrated paper he co-wrote (Borde–Guth–Vilenkin theorem). But Craig (like all Christian fundamentalist apologists) didn't understand what he was reading. And why? Because he had a bias to confirm. (<--Link). And why? Because he makes a good living off of lying to people. Why else? Because he never outgrew the need to be parented, and to feel loved and accepted by a Father. Sean Carroll knew Craig was going to quote that paper. So he interviewed Guth to set the record straight. And then Sean played that part of the interview (on a large screen) in his response. Guth explained that "the beginning" referred to in their paper is only a refence to "classical descriptions of our universe". It's a reference to the beginning of the process where all of that energy flew outward from a central location and eventually formed suns, planets, etc.. It was "that" beginning". It was not (not at all) the absolute beginning of all time, space, and energy. Although, again, the "beginning" mentioned in Genesis is ALSO not about the absolutely beginning of all time, space, and matter. It was only "the beginning" of a story, and "the beginning" of a process where a lonely Magic Man started to create things. Ancient Hebrews said nothing at all about any absolutely beginning of time, space, or matter. In fact, nobody (not anywhere in the world) in the Bronze and Iron ages were talking about such concepts. These ideas immerged much later. Human cognition gradually grew into the ability to think and talk about such things. What Ross is doing there is very much the same thing that Muslims do when they read from their religion's book and assign new meanings to old words. They say "See. only a GOD could have known such scientific things at the time. Therefore, a GOD authored these words. Therefore our religion is true". Also, the Hebrews stole (and adapted) their ideas from other/older religions. So no matter what they ever got right (as rare as that was), that would only be a credit to the entirely non-Abrahamic religions the Hebrews were copying from. Meanwhile, Scientists are still not saying what Genesis-Creationists think scientists are saying. And they are pretty tired of Christians correcting them about their own work to say "What you really meant was the thing my holy book says. You just think you meant something different. So I'm going to keep quote-mining you with what you really meant but didn't know you really meant". ---- Fundamentalist Christianity (including Protestant, Catholic, and pseudo-independent versions) is all a multilevel marketing grift. This is why their leading spiritual snake oil salesmen won't correct themselves when proven wrong. It's why Craig couldn't just say "Hey, I was wrong about this. I am sorry and I won't misquote science about this again". They already know it's a grift. So they keep selling fraudulent afterlife fire insurance. Meanwhile, they keep making the world a worse place for everyone to live. Why? So they can have a sufficiently ignorant, panicked and desperate population to sell 'peace of mind' to. You can't "rescue" people who are doing well. So they make sure as many people as possible are NOT doing well. From there, they keep White Knight-ing as everyone's would-be rescuers, on behalf of a cosmic Mafia Boss. It is, by definition, an extorsion/protection racket. "My mysterious Boss made this town. He owns this town, and owns everyone in it. Surely seeing puppies and rainbows proves he exists. Just ignore all the flesh-eating bacteria and countless other "designed" forces of horrifically painful destruction and tragedy in our world. Look at the trees! Anyways, it would be a shame if he has to hurt you when he finally returns. Eternal love does NOT have eternal patience. Nor are you worth delivering these "messages" to directly. So we're here to accept your complete surrender to our moral authority over every meaningful facet of your lives. We can wait until later to talk about all the money we'll be needing. "He" is offering, quite generously, to protect you ... from what he will do to you if you don't let him protect you from him. And all it will cost you is "nothing" (except for damn-near everything). Whereas, if you don't arbitrarily choose to let me spend your time (however long it takes) jacking around with your headspace until you feel how I want you to feel, "He" will take that personally. YOU MUST let me use this PSY OP ( this mind game it took thousands of years to refine into what it is today) to make you perceive what I want you to perceive. If you don't, then "He" will feel personally "rejected". And then it will be your own fault what he does to you [and probably your whole family; unless you can humble them into subjection (to us)] before it's too late. Act now! He could arrive at any moment! Feel bad and stained from the candy bar you stole when you were 8 years old, even though you already put in the work to BECOME someone who would never do that. Feel dirty and deficient for merely being imperfect! We need you to feel like you are not enough as you are. Why? So that you can feel a NEED to be forgiven for that. The same as any "beauty magazine". We are here to prey upon your insecurities. Except in this case that's a good thing, because the creator of the universe put us up to it. We need you to buy what we're selling, so that you can feel better about yourself and worse about 99% of all other humans! Work out your salvation with fear and trembling! Join our authoritarian, totalitarian, psychological violent, curiously narcissistic army of spiritual mercenaries today! --- --- --- That's how you'd be saying it, if you were honest. Your "faith" has weaponized you. It has made you a less compassionate, less honest, and less accountable person. And you don't even realize it. Debating Mr Ross or any other cult leader won't result in any cultists waking up; nor cause any cult-leader to feel sorry for their grift. Arguments won't solve a problem that isn't merely caused by misunderstanding. Nobody can successfully appeal to any facet of character that the other person does not posses. However, character can change over time. So all we can do is wait and see. If you ever accidentally mature enough to take the first step out of that mess, you'll seek out help doing that instead. Until then, no arguments could help.