Re: Heart conditions, humility, and redemption.

 [Please note: any word printed in CAPS are not meant to convey yelling; but rather: emphasis. 
If this presentation were given orally, those are the words I could have said a bit louder than the rest, in order to convey meaningful emphasis; along with a bit of passion]

1. Claim:

"you must recognize that you are a sinner before you realize you need Jesus to forgive you and save you."
--
Reply:

First, if the person offering to sell you protection
is,
or represents,
the person they're offering to protect you ~from~ ...
that's called extortion;
also know as a "Protection Racket".

And if they call it "Free", even though it's going to cost you a lot,
that's called:
lying.
Although, they may prefer to think of it as "effective marketing"; for a product they've convinced themselves you need. 

It's also circular reasoning.

"I know I am that thing, because book says so.
I know book is right, because I am that thing.
I know I am that thing, because book says so."

Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy.

That means it's not logical.

That might not matter to you. But it matters to me.
And I think it should matter to everyone.

Without logical reasoning, literally "anything goes".

Such self-indulgent whim
is the foundation of irresponsibility.

Think about it.

How do you know you're a "sinner"?

Being a "sinner" doesn't just mean we have limits, or flaws, or have done some crappy things.

It also means that a literal deity is disappointed by those things.

It also means that a literal deity finds us unworthy of his presense, and even our very existence; because of those things.

Worse yet, most religious fundamentalists think it ALSO means we don't deserve to:
not be tortured forever.

Now, if anyone wants to say it's self-evident that we all have flaws, and we've all done crappy things, ...
I agree. Of course.

But in order to call those "sins", we're attaching religious ideas to it.

And those religious ideas are not "self-evident".

 In fact, those extra concepts are not supported by any objectively substantiated evidence, nor logical reasoning.

So how did you arrive at them, as your moral conclusions?

~Faith~ (which is emotion-based)
in what some random religious guys wrote
thousands of years ago.

You can call that "Absolute Faith in (a) God" if you want to.
But it's actually:
Absolute faith in men;
whom merely claimed to speak for a God;
which:
literally no humans are qualified for.
********
Never send a man
to do a God's job.

He would just screw it up.
And then (literally) condemn his audience for noticing.
*********

Meanwhile:

2. I don't need to be "forgiven"
by ANYONE
for being imperfect.

Weighing our merits and worth against the impossible standard of ~perfection~
is a form of abuse (or: self-abuse, when we do that to our own self).

3. However, 
I DO want to be forgiven by the ACTUAL PEOPLE that I've actually wronged.
   But I wouldn't add insult to injury, by asking a 3rd party to forgive me for what I did to the 2nd party.

I'd go straight to the person I harmed,
apologize, and offer to make amends.

And then, no matter if they honor that or not, ...
my conscience is "cleansed", as long as *I* know I am sincere;
without any need for religious rituals.

4. It doesn't make any sense,
to be forgiven by an alleged "God" ... for being:
exactly as that God is alleged to have created us.

Per the lore, he created everyone ... imperfect.

So any resulting problems ... would be his fault.

In that case, it's HIM (if he exists)
who should be apologizing to us.

5. The concept of the atonement
is based on a concept that Christianity copied (stole) from far older pagan religions.

It's called "scapegoating".

 A tribe would ritualistically pile their failings and transgressions onto an innocent animal
and send it out into the harsh desert to die of hunger, thirst, and predators.

When the animal departed, they imagined their bullshit left with it.

When it died, they imagined their bullshit died with it.

Thus, they were cleansed of (what you'd call:) "their sins".

And then they could enjoy a closer relationship with their gods (and with themselves); as cleansed, worthy people.

6. But that's the opposite of accepting personal responsibility for our failings.

It's specifically an evasion of accountability;

- which directly discourages personal growth into more morally accountable people.

-which (because that has become so popular) is a BIG part of why most humans haven't matured into moral ADULTS;

- which is a BIG part of why the world is still so selfishly unjust, destructive, and divided.

And that is just one PART of all the ways
that Christianity functions like an arsonist in our world;

- setting and fanning fires, so that it can "smoke us out", and make us DESPERATE from our suffering, so they can wait with arms open ... offering hugs, cookies, and "a great deal on afterlife insurance" (clickable link). 

It really is just a mafia-type protection racket; run by political/religious cults; selfishly seeking to leverage power over exploitable sheep.

------------

7.
Claim:
"Biblical Christianity is very humbling, and it should be."
--
Reply:
whatever anti-humbles you
~relative to~
other humans
is not true humility.

Worse yet, ...

The religious premise
just turns "God" into what clinical mental health experts call "the narcissist's mask".

 It's an imaginative justification for speaking and relating to other humans
as:
 a person it would be "wrong" to doubt, question, or criticize.

So then religious fundamentalists,
as a totally normal behavior for people in that culture, start speaking in crazy narcissistic ways, like:

"to doubt me is to doubt your GOD"

and
"to question me is to question your GOD"

and
"to criticize the things I say ... is to criticize your GOD" ...

because he is the true source
and
the unequal-to-you moral AUTHORITY
by which I speak!".
----
No one
should humor that.

They shouldn't even tolerate it.

But it's exactly that premise that bible stories and preachments were offered from.

And it's exactly the premise that modern preachers "witness" from.
---------------
8.

Claim:
" Christ deserves all the credit for everything."
--
 Reply:

 That's rather ironic;
- given that the "Jesus" character in bible stories
OBSSESED about making sure he doesn't get credit for any of it.

He insisted that the Father gets all the credit, for his every word and action.

But ok.
Jesus is stupid.
He should have claimed the credit.
Fine.

But to me,
and to the world's leading historians,
he's still just a character in some poorly preserved religious stories.... who might have been based (very very loosely) on a real-but-fallible Jewish guy. 
----------------
9. Claim:
"Biblical Christians realize our hearts are absolutely wicked"
--
Reply:
THAT statement
is a gross exaggeration of what all humans are like.

It is also:
NOT the same thing
as saying we have "imperfections and moral shortcomings".
-------------
10.
Claim:
"we need Christ to change our hearts."
--
into what?
Better hearts?

You can't even decide if it ~does that~ or not.

Earlier, you said it does.
And then you denied that it does.

But you can't have it both ways.

It either does
or doesn't
give Christians a "better heart" than non-Christians.

If it does, then how do you know it does?
 
If it doesn't, then why say it does?
---------------
--------------
 in reply, she said 
"I would say rather the more accurate analogy is that of a patient dying of cancer. The patient must first understand their dire situation and agree they need treatment before they will consent to the doctor treating their otherwise hopeless condition.

----
To this, my reply is:

 You've been given a placebo.

The only way to become more accountable, is to accept every responsibility, and the work that goes into it;
not evading it by scapegoating our failings to an innocent martyr, and then bragging about how we didn't have to make the sacrifice or do the work our self.

If you want help understanding how this works, watch the old cable tv series called "My Name Is Earl".

He starts that journey for selfish and superstitious reasons; same as anyone looking to Christianity for remedies.

But the path he chooses is better. Because it helps him become a more mature, accountable and compassionate person; capable of a healthier relationship with others, and with himself.